While we’re fighting corruption, the monster is striking back –Sagay

 

In this interview with Chris Iwarah, eminent lawyer and Chairman of the Presidential Advisory Committee on Anti-corruption, Prof. Itse Sagay (SAN), takes a look at the war against graft in the country, submitting that treasury looters are ganging up to derail the process. Sagay, who turned 70 on Sunday, also speaks on the work of his committee, saying the get-rich-quick disposition of the younger generation of Nigerians worries him. Excerpts:

A media report last week appears to suggest that you are uncomfortable with President Muhammadu Buhari’s anti-corruption war. Where do you really stand on the anti-graft campaign?

The truth really is that I have never met this reporter called Olakunle Taiwo of the Tribune. There was no such interview. And it’s amazing and I’m totally flabbergasted that someone can really sit down and concoct an interview of almost an hour’s length totally out of his imagination and vicious intentions and agenda and then ascribe it to me. I can’t understand the reason for this except that in August this year, you reporters were here, I granted them a gener­ous interview of over one hour, which they published in two consecutive issues of their newspaper. To my utter shock, every word I said was distorted, given a totally different meaning and slant and even ideas I didn’t express were added to create a situation where an impression was given that I was not comfortable with the present administration. And when I noticed that Tribune has its own private agenda, which it was trying to foist on me and use my name to promote that agenda, I stopped all contact with them. And each time they called me, I didn’t answer. Even after that, they still faked something about me and at the end of the day they referred to me as the “controversial chairman.” So, you could see the hostility building up without any contact. And I ignored it. And things seemed to have died down until somebody called me last night (on Sunday) at about 10 p.m. to ask me whether I had seen the Sunday Tribune and my interview. I have never seen or spoken to Tribune since August, so there could be no such interview. He said, “No, there’s an extensive interview.” But I didn’t have the paper, but someone suggested that I could get it on the Internet. So, I did finally. I read it and I was horrified. Not only did I not grant any interview, but even the positions attributed to me are completely contrary to everything I stand for as a human being.

I joined this anti-corruption struggle willingly. When I was invited, I accepted willingly because I believe in the sincerity of the president, who has in fact maintained this position for decades. I regard him as a man of the great­est integrity, a man who has no tolerance for indiscipline. Those are the real ills of this country. So, I was glad to join him, in driving the great fight against corruption. To now say that I doubted his sincerity really, in effect, is to say that I should break up the relationship. That is what they are aiming for. You can’t wok within a community and circle headed by a man like that, who has a most unrelenting programme against corruption and to make that sort of state­ment while you’re still there. That’s irresponsible. So, it’s obvious that it’s all concocted and it’s a lie. Not only with regard to President Buhari, but also things were said about APC (All Progressive Congress), a party that has saved us from 16 years of looting and mis-governance, saved us as a country from failing. So, I could never have said that. I can’t agree with everything APC says, but, by and large, I’m a very strong admirer of the party. And I can tell you something. I’m 75 now. I started involvement in politics in 1962, this is the first time I have ever been involved with a party in power, because I’ve never supported any party in power in this country, because those parties had no integrity, no programme. They were just jobbers, people who were there for self-service or for oppression. In 1962, I was a member of Action Group as a law student in Ife. Then the next party I joined was UPN. I was in their intellectual division headed by Professor Aluko at Ife and we used to think and propose and write papers for the party. And after that, it was the AD I supported. After AD, AC. After AC, ACN and now APC. Apart from APC, All others had been opposition parties, because I could not tolerate governments that were in power because they were too corrupt, too rot­ten, too deficient in any type of measurement of a group of people ready for good governance. And I was ready to stick to my stand for the rest of my life if I didn’t see a party in government that I could support. This is the first time I have supported any Federal Government in Nigeria because it has a party that has a programme which is basically oriented towards the interest of the masses and the people leading it are men of the highest integrity and discipline. That’s why I agreed to participate. So, all this attacking APC and so on is all nonsense, because without APC, we are finished.

Then, there is the issue of judges. How can I talk of judges in such disparaging fashion? People who are work­ing under conditions that are so harsh in this country and doing their best to sustain our legal system and our rule of law. There are bad eggs and definitely whenever I have he opportunity I will participate in pointing them out so that they can be shown the way out. But, by and large, we have judges who are dedicated, who are sacrificing for this coun­try. And I will continue to support them and I admire them. So, the report that I had disdain for judges really pained me because it gave a very bad impression, wrong impression of an institution that I admire very much.

The report coincided with youth 75th birth­day on Sunday. How did you feel about it?

They knew! They must have known. Thank God I didn’t know about it. We had a celebration. My family met, we were all happy together, we loved each other, we ate, we drank, we praised God and then everybody went home. It was when I was about to sleep that I got the call. So, I was saved that agony.

But do you really think anybody was target­ing you with that report?

I believe so. I believe it is a PDP-driven agenda. I think they want to destabilise the struggle and action against cor­ruption; totally distabilise it. Create dissention, which will create incapacity to carry on with the struggle. I think it’s a PDP-driven thing. The corruption barons in this country are striking back.

When you were to join government, given the fact that most Nigerians see you as one with integrity, did you hesitate in order not to tar­nish your image?

No! Not at all. I looked at the party, we had a Buhari there, who had been consistent for 30 years. Then we had an Osinbajo, who I have known since 1982 when he was just a young lecturer in the University of Lagos; a man also of the highest integrity, highly disciplined and straightfor­ward, gentle and kind in disposition. So, when I saw those two, it was the ideal situation to join the government, to associate with people in government and work with them towards promoting the welfare and safety of Nigerians.

It’s been four months since you accepted to chair the Presidential Advisory Committee on Anti-corruption. Have you seen anything that suggests you made a mistake?

Not at all. I’ve not seen it. Nothing is perfect. There will be things here and there, which you could say: “This is not the way I would have done it.” But, by and large, everything has been excellent. And the people with whom I’m working, or I should say for whom I’m working, are people I still ad­mire very much and I enjoy continued association with them in this struggle, so that at the end of the day when Nigerians will enjoy the sunlight, the sunshine of a sane society free of corruption, I will be able to say I was one of them, I was in that team. Tat’s a good legacy I want to leave for my children and hopefully, my grandchildren.

Are you then saying you’re satisfied so far with the prosecution of the fight against cor­ruption?

Yes! As I said, it’s not perfect. But, yousee, the present administration has done its best, is doing its best and it’s doing it very well, better than any other. In fact, I’m not sure that any other administration had really made any effort to fight corruption. This is the first administration I’ve seen and they are doing very well. They are consistent, they are not swerving, they are not distracted, they are determined and they are pursuing that goal with all the capacity they have. And they have a major plan to carry on that programme. So, yes, I fully endorse what is going on.

But what specifically has been your commit­tee’s contribution to the anti-corruption fight so far?

I wouldn’t say much. You know I told you I’m not going to talk for now, maybe till another time, after this thing (negative report) has blown off. But let me put it this way. Our committee is providing coordination for the anti-corrup­tion agencies. It’s doing some fundamental work, which will sustain that struggle indefinitely. And when we now get to a situation where we can say that we have reached a level in which corruption has been reduced to an acceptable extent … We are creating a template on which the anti-corruption agencies can stand, on which they can work to see that we will never fall back. So, on the issue of corruption, you won’t see us much, you won’t hear much from us, but a lot of work is going on. Very solid work is going on quietly.

Would you say the template for the fight against corruption fo far suits the rule of law?

Absolutely! Again, you’re gradually enticing me into discussing (the work of my committee). But the first thing I will say is this, because we did it publicly. We organized, in association with an established NGO, a conefernce on interpretation of vital parts of the Adminsitration of Criminal Justice Act. You know, there was a lot of controiversy about adjournment and all those things, So.we had a whole day. We got the best brains in the land to come and anaylise and dissect and use past experience to concentrate and focus on what we should do in the interim to enlighten all the prosecutors on what they can do and what they can’t do. We did that very recently, 9th of December, at the International Anti-Corruption Day. And what we’ve done is going to the record because it was recorded. And we’;re going to pass it on to all the rest relevant agencies and private practitioners so that we can see how this new act can be interpreted in a manner that will ensure that any action that is brought for corruption against a person will be determined in weeks.

You became 75 before agreeing to work for any government in this country. Knowing your capacity and integrity, has the nation not lost a lot not having you in government?

I can’t join villains. To do that is to run down the country further. I didn’t join at the federal level, but I’ve worked with state governments. When fashola was here, I worked for the whole eight years. I was a strong supporter of the Fashola administration and I made my input at the relevant levels. I made a lot of input in the government of Delta State. So, at the state level, I’ve operated in the past. It’s only at the federal level. For me to join … mention the names and you will see the kind of people I’m talking about. And I ws told, I don’t know whether this is true, maybe Chief Obasanjo himself will confirm it. After the very tragic and sad demise of Chief Bola Ige, Iwas the one recom­mended by a top public officer at the Supreme Court level to replace him. And President Obasanjo, apparently, according to the story, initially accepted but said he would check my background because he didn’t know me. According to the story, he now checked from one of the very establishment, reactionary PDP Senior Advocates, older than me, who has been around for a long time, and that one said: “If you touch that man, it means that he can even prosecute you, you can’t control him.” So, when the man who recommended me saw Obasanjo later, he said: “What happened to my recommen­dation?” He (Obasanjo) said: “Ah! If it’s that your friend, he is too cantankerous. So, I was advised not to touch him.” So, maybe something might have happened at that stage, because as an attorney general, being an independent officer of the state, I might have (accepted to work for the Federal Government). But that chance never occurred. With the advice, the offer was never made. So, I have no regrets. You know, they say God’s time is the best. And I’m very happy to be associated with this government.

You just turned 75. Generally in life, what bothers you?

(Heaves a sigh) I could have said many things, but I won’t go into all of that. I think, not generally in life. I will just limit myself to public life, government. It’s the orienta­tion of the average Nigerian. Over the decades, the average Nigerian, even the younger ones ….That’s why I laugh when I see the Press and political analysts saying: “Oh! Hand over to the younger generation. Why do you want a man of 70-something in government?” The younger generation has lost morality. All of them think of becoming a Dangote in two weeks; something the man spent all his life building up. So, because of that they will do anything. The young Nigerian now who is a graduate will not think of driving a Volkswagen, which was the ambition of all of us in those days – ride a two-dooor tortoise, which was a great honour. That’s the way they think, and people who think like that do not care how they get what they want. They can destroy the country to get that level of luxury. If you look at those who are corrupt in the country today, we are talking about the older ones. There are teeming thousands and thousands of younger ones who are deeply involved. If you look at the subsidy cabal, a lot of them are children of older politicians. Many of them. That’s what is worrying me. The orientation of the young Nigerian today is totally anti-social; get rick quick at any cost. “The country can die as long as I’m rich.” That’s the mentality I fear most; that worries me most.

At what point did we get it wrong and why did we get it wrong?

A lot of people think it was during the Babangida era, and to certain extent I agree. I know during the Shagari era there was some of that but it was limited mainly to politicians. But the Babangida regime seems to have given legitimacy nationwide (to the get-rich-quick orientation) at every level. If the Buhari (military) administration had survived in 1983 to 1985, maybe we would have gotten out of it. But after Ba­bangida came Abacha, the greatest thief of all. And after that came Abdulsalami Abubakar, who really didn’t do anything at all to help because he was rushing to leave power. So, that’s when the whole thing started.

Is there any way we can correct this?

Yes, by this kind of government that we have., because … You are making me talk more than I wanted, but this is the final thing I’m going to say. We in the committee are not limited to only dealing with the corruption that has already occurred. We are also trying to re-orientate Nigerians not to want to be corrupt So, we are working on that, trying to show through various means, including plays and various other things, to Nigerians the consequences of corruption; how many people are dying; how roads are causing ac­cidents; how hospitals are not being built; how lifespan has reduced and robbers and kidnappers are being created. We’re working on all that to show Nigerians that the cost of corrup­tion is too high. So, that’s part of the job.

I wish you could talk about the judiciary as a major plank of the Buhari administration’s fight against corruption.

Oh, absolutely. The leadership of the judiciary is really at par in this regard woth the president. The chief justice himself is passionate about having a clean judiciary, to clean up the administration of justice system. And seeing that all corruption cases are prosecuted from the beginning to the end in a short time without any frivolous interferences, which Senior Advocates have perfected over the last years, sabotaging the prosecution of criminal cases in order to share the loot with their clients, which they have have been doing shamelessly because of the weak capacity, enjoying a life of luxury, buying private jets at the expense of the suf­fering masses of this country. So, yes, the judiciary is ready and we’re going to make them more ready. We have certain agenda, cvertain plans that are going to make them even more ready to participate in the struggle. I tell you the chief justice is in the driver’s seat.

You’ve really indulged us a lot, but I need to ask this. All your life, you’ve walked and worked with the opposition. Are you drawn to the opposition because of your activist side?

Because people in power in this country lacked integrity. They didn’t like the truth. They were oppressive; I don’t like oppression. They were greedy. They didn’t believe in sacri­fice and what they could do for the people but themselves. In fact, they were in government for the wrong reasons, all of them. Who could I have joined? Could I join Tafawa Balewa when Awo was there? There’s no choice. I believe in quality, I go for quality. That (Awo) was a man with one of the finest minds and highest integrity I’ve ever encountered in the whole world. So, I had no choice. I was young, just out of secondaryschool and I was living in Lagos. I went to the House of Representatives and I saw Awolowo perform. That was it. There was no going back after I saw that man. Nobody matched him. No sentimentsabout it. Any party he formed was my party. That’s why I feel pained that Tribune, which is his paper, Tribune with which I worked … I was a member of the National Executive Committee of Action Group as a student and I was working with Tribune to pro­mote the interest of the progressives in this country, The edi­tor, Ayo Ojewunmi at that time, in 1962, 1962, 1964, 1965, we were working together. He was my very good friend; that editor of Tribune. That’s why these things (report) are so painful to me. So, that’s Awo. There’s no way I have gone … Later we had UPN; Awo was there, Jakande was there. For goodness’ sake, you had a man like Jakande; his life was just self-sacrifice. He was driving an old car; living in an old house; giving people land in Ikoyi and so on but he was living in Ilupeju there; building houses all over the place. Can you see such a man and go to another place? He was the best. Came Tinubu, the same thing. Came Fashola, the same thing. And now, well, I’m waiting to see how farAmbode will follow their footsteps. But just because of the anteced­ents of his (Ambode’s) predecessors, he can consider me his supporter until there’s a reason to do the contrary. So, these were progressives. These were people who wanted the best for their people. I couldn’t go to any other group because my conscience could not let me. I don’t look for luxury. I could survive on what I had. So, want and hunger dind’t drive me into the wrong hands. I think I need to thank God for that. So, I wanted the best, the best human beings and I was able to associate with the best human beings up to now. So, I see hope for this country.