Tinubu is a rebel, not Yoruba leader –Sen. Okurounmu

Senator Femi Okurounmu has a rich public service experience. Before being elected a Senator in 1999 to represent Ogun Central in the National Assembly, he had served as a Commissioner for Works in his home state.
In this interview aired on Rock City FM radio, Abeokuta, Ogun State and monitored by TOSIN AKINOLA, the one-time Secretary General of Yoru­ba socio-political group, Afenifere, spoke extensively on the leadership of Yoruba nation, Boko Haram insurgency, 2015 elections and, of course, the recently con­cluded National Conference. He laid its foundation as the Chairman of the pres­idential committee that set the template for the confab. Excerpts:
Having been a senator, a commis­sioner, and most recently chairman of the presidential advisory commit­tee on the national conference, which of these assignments do you consid­er as the most intriguing?
The most intriguing is the one that brings you to interact with other Nigerians. So that you relate with other Nigerians; as Nigeri­ans, your thinking, your inter relationship, your objective is to accommodate other Ni­gerians while you do not forgo the interest of your own people, this is the most intriguing, and this was when I was in the Senate with 108 other senators. We have to make laws for Nigerians, of course, more recently, I was the chairman of the presidential advisory committee on the national conference, here again, I have to go round the entire country to talk to those who wanted it and those who do not, those who wanted different and con­flicting goals from what should be achieved by the conference, again, I have to crystalize all this and distil them into a report, then send to the president, this was very intriguing.
You have talked about the national conference, was there any time you feel that Nigerians are a difficult set of people to please and then you feel like throwing in the towel particularly when there were criticisms about you accepting the job and the assign­ment itself?
The sector from which the criticism was coming, which was mostly Tinubu and his gang, did not surprise me because they have shown themselves to be anti-progressives, they call themselves progressives, and they have become the reactionaries of Yoruba land who wear the gabs of progressives. Their re­actions did not surprise me at all, what would have surprised me is if the true progressives of Yoruba land at the grassroots have been critical. That would have surprised me. In spite of the reactions of people like Tinubu and the APC leadership, the overwhelming masses in Yoruba land were in support, not only in support, they were of great assis­tance, they encouraged me, this is something we have all agitated for since the 90s, all the so-called APC leaders, particularly those of them who were part of the Awolowo politi­cal lineage, those of them who were part of NADECO, Afenifere, have all been agitating for this thing since the 1990s, PRONACO has held its own, so when Tinubu now came out to oppose it, that shows the type of lead­ers we have, we don’t have leaders who operate on principles, many leaders of today are operating in the interest of their pock­ets and their own personal interest.Tinubu is one of those leaders. I have no regrets to say that, I don’t hesitate to say it; Tinubu is one of those leaders trying to mislead the Yoruba people to achieve his own selfish interest.
Tinubu could be said to be a youth when compared to people like you, Olu Falae, Ayo Adebanjo, Olanihun Ajayi and other Yoruba elders who are older in age and experience, but he is seen today, outside the shores of Yoruba land as a Yoruba leader, how did people of your group hand it over to him?
It is interesting, I’m glad you said outside Yoruba land, that is true and only outside of Yoruba land but we Yorubas know our lead­ers. Of course, anybody who has money can pose as a leader anytime, anybody with a hundred of millions of dollars can arrive tomorrow from United States, not known by anybody, with his dollars and say he wants to contest.
All those people you mentioned, the Ade­banjos, Durojaiye, Olu Falae, myself, we all have a political lineage, a lineage that can be traced back to Awolowo.
How come you then let him take over the leadership?
In 1999, the people you mentioned, the traditional leaders were the ones who led the campaign for Afenifere, AD then, was Afenifere, the Yoruba people accepted our leadership and they voted en masse for our candidates, they accepted Tinubu, because he was Afenifere, he was sponsored by us. All of those governors were sponsored by us, as soon as they got to power, they began to rebel, of course, they’ve come into control of money, particularly in Lagos.
Tinubu had a lot of money under his control in Lagos, they control the purse as governors, they now said Adesanya should go and sit down, they are nobody, all the tra­ditional leadership of Afenifere are nobody, they began to operate as lords, so, between 1999 and 2003, the AD was in crisis, it be­came split into two, unfortunately as Oba­sanjo was sworn in, he was able to attract Bola Ige to serve in his government, Bola Ige had his own grievances against the lead­ership because he was not chosen to be the presidential candidate, Obasanjo exploited Bola Ige’s grievances and used him to divide AD and Afenifere. He gave us a chairman whom we did not even know, one Alhaji Abdulkadir; it will interest you that this Al­haji Abdulkadir was sponsored by Bola Ige and these rebellious governors. Later, when the eyes of Bola Ige himself began to open, he admitted to us that he too has never met Abdulkadir before and that it was Obasanjo who gave Abdulkadir to him to become the chairman of AD, Adesanya has never met him, Adebanjo has never met him, and none of us ever met him. That was where the cri­sis of AD began; we then had two different conventions, those who chose to recognise Abdulkadir and those who chose not to rec­ognise him. We stuck with our chairman that was Ambassador Mamman Yusuf, he was the chairman recognised by the leadership of Afenifere while Abdulkadir was the one recognised by Bola Ige and the governors who have then rebelled against Afenifere. That was where the split and the crisis began, from then all the governors became uncon­trollable, they began to act like a dog that was not on the leach, no longer under any control. That is the problem and of course, Tinubu became more powerful after 2003 because he was the only one that remained, Obasanjo had schemed all of them out, so Tinubu was the only one that had money to spend, so he became the de facto leader of these rebellious governors, that is what happened.
It’s been months now that the re­port of the National Conference was submitted to the president, will this not kill the zeal and expectations of people towards the assignment?
Nigerians must be realistic, they should not expect the recommendations to be imple­mented in a jiffy, many of them will require a lot of diplomatic manoeuvring between the presidency and the National Assembly, people have to understand, that the National Assembly was not well disposed to the con­ference, there were sections of the country that were also not well disposed, many of these recommendations were not palatable to some elements, so it’s going to require a lot of diplomacy on the part of the president, so it cannot happen very quickly. In fact, my be­lief is that until after the elections, if the pres­ident gets a new mandate from the people of Nigeria, he would have been strengthened to implement all these recommendations. Those of us who believe in the recommenda­tions of the national conference, the way to get recommendations implemented is to get Jonathan returned as president for the second term, so that when he gets there, he has the full mandate of the Nigerian people to imple­ment it.
Do you really believe that Jonathan will be returned in 2015?
Frankly, I believe so.
Should the basis for his return be because we want the recommenda­tions of the national conference im­plemented?
No! No! There are many reasons for him to be returned, that is just one, call the avail­able candidates, do you see any alternative to Jonathan? Jonathan is perfect, even though there is one weak spot that he has to remedy when he comes back, that is the fight against corruption. If he goes back for the second term and he doesn’t have to think about be­ing re-elected, his hands would have been strengthened to tackle corruption, he has problem tackling corruption in the first term because Nigeria is a place where you have to step on toes if you have to fight corrup­tion the way you should. On the basis of his performance, if you remove corruption, he deserves a second term.
Jonathan has been the best president we had since we began democratic rule in 1999, compared to his predecessors.
Are you working towards his re­turn?
I have told you that my belief is that he is our best option, the best way to work for his return is to let people know that he is our best option and I will not hesitate to let peo­ple know it.
Why do you think he has not been able to fight corruption?
You know how Jonathan himself became president, there were so many people who wanted to become president but God said he is the one who will be president. These same people are still around him, the same people who were around Yar’Adua are still around him, a lot of these people, we all know are very corrupt, and in Nigeria, anybody who wants to step on the toes of these people will not last, he will not survive. I’m telling you this, Nigeria is such a delicate country, to fight corruption, you have to step on toes, powerful toes but I’m saying that when you are on a second term, you are not thinking of re-election, it’s only between you and your God, then, you can afford to step on toes.
So, it’s right to say that his quest for a second term has slowed down his ability to take key decisions?
No, no, I never said that, for Boko Haram, he is doing all that can be done to fight Boko Haram, the Boko Haram insurgency is po­litical, many Nigerians know that it’s partly political.
If you say it’s political, these peo­ple have attacked all the sections, all groups, North and South, Christians or Muslims…?
Yes, of course, their objective is to carve out Islamic caliphate and if you want to do this, you have to fight everybody who is on your way. There is no doubt that these peo­ple’s intention is to establish an Islamic cali­phate in Nigeria or possibly turn the whole of Nigeria into an Islamic country.
But we have a Nigerian Army which has declared war against them and yet they appear to gain more grounds all the time?
Remember that this is not a conventional war, is there any country that is as powerful as United States in the world? Why is it that they have not succeeded in fighting this in­surgency elsewhere in the world? Every day, America is still fighting insurgency, with all the powers they have, Americans are being beheaded openly on television for America and the world to see, in spite of all their pow­ers and security operations they do every day.
Can we then say that Boko Haram is going to be here for a long time if not here to stay?
If we are united to fight against them, we shall overcome them. But as it is now, to some people, what Boko Haram is doing is to their political interest. I will say that the APC in particular, believes that if Boko Haram gets a victory, that is to their own in­terest, they can use it against Jonathan, they try to glamorise any attack for Boko Haram because they want to run down Jonathan, they don’t see it as a national challenge that all of us have to fight. It is not an accident, that the nearer the time for Jonathan to de­clare his interest comes, they intensify their attacks. They fall short of saying Jonathan, should not declare his interest, he should just come and throw in the towel that he is not contesting.
If some northern political elites have been identified as suspects, why is it difficult for national security agents to go after them?
This is the difference between Jonathan’s government and the previous governments, you don’t just arrest people and lock them up on the basis of mere suspicion, you must have hard-core evidence, for now there is no hard-core evidence against any of them.
We all know one thing, their objectives are the same. Their personal objectives are not very different from those of Boko Har­am. When you hand over a country to peo­ple like that, it means you have surrendered to the Islamic extremism.
Some people have accused the Ijaw ethnic group of acting and de­fining the opportunity they have with their kinsman as the President as being egocentric and flaunting it on other groups, should the Presidency or President be that of Ijaw nation or President of Nigeria, because you are close to the ijaw leaders, is that the way they feel?
Those who are saying that, are suffer­ing from inferiority complex because ever since we got our independence in 1960, the Fulanis have behaved worse than the ijaws. They believed that Nigeria is their private purse, that they must have that power at all costs, that any time the power mistakenly slips out of their hand, they must recover it immediately. When Obasanjo was Presi­dent, they said they just wanted to pacify the Yorubas because of Abiola, that if Nigeria must to have peace, they must give it to the Yorubas and even at that, they decided they must choose the particular person they want. A Yoruba that will take care of their inter­est, so they handpicked Obasanjo. When Jonathan got there, they said it’s a mistake, he doesn’t belong, anyone who is not Fulani, as far as they are concerned, doesn’t belong and if any other ethnic group wants to be­have like them, they begin to feel uncomfort­able. The presidency in Nigeria belongs to every ethnic group, we all have same right as any Fulani man to aspire for power, what is wrong if the Ijaws say their son should have two terms.
You have had opportunities to work with different ethnic groups in the country, as a result of your years of public service, do you think Nige­rian ethnic groups really see them­selves as brothers?
Yes, we all see one another as brothers, provided you don’t try to lord it over the other. Brotherhood should be mutual, if I see you as a brother; you must see me as a broth­er. Ethnic divisions have become open be­cause other people force it upon you. When I saw the role the North played in 1979 to deprive Awolowo, a Yorubaman, the Presi­dency to see that he never gets there, they did not hide it. I saw the role they have been playing in Nigeria’s history to see that they, they alone rule this country, most people are just resisting the idea of a particular ethnic group trying to impose itself and force itself as the ruling class.
The idea of creating more states is to lib­erate oppressed northern minorities; we do not even feel this oppression as the Northern minorities do. A lot of the Northern minori­ties are treated like cows and dogs.
Do you think creation of states will solve this or open up more agitation by groups for their own state? Can our economy even survive it?
Creation of more states in the South is not an imperative but in the North it is impera­tive because a lot of the northern minorities are bearing the burden of oppression and domination, especially by the Fulanis. They came with cries to the conference, of self-determination, liberation. We went with a re­gional agenda and that is why they could not support our regional agenda. They wanted a far greater freedom; they wanted the minori­ties who are under the dominance of the Fu­lani to be given their own states. When you hear of Fulani herdsmen attacking villages, it is not by accident.
They decided that the way to make them feel Nigerian, is to create states for them and we agreed with them. Of course, we cannot create states in the north and not create in the South, there must be parity and equality. We didn’t really need a state in the south.
The economy can survive, all we need is to stop our dependence on oil, and each state has enough resources to develop itself. That is why we set out five per cent for states min­eral resources from the revenue allocation sharing formula.
Some people have said that the South-West develops faster and better when they are in a different political party from the Federal Gov­ernment, should the South-West not follow history and stay away from government at the central?
We should not stay out of the Federal Gov­ernment as a matter of principle; we should look at the merit, we should look at who is the candidate, is the candidate a person who will promote the ideas that we stand for? Of course, we should vote for that person. And be part of the Federal Government. If the per­son doesn’t share our ideals, we should stay away and stick to the opposition. Again, I will give you an example of this man called Buhari, in 1985 when he took over power, the UPN and NPP governors who were the pro­gressives, were the most punished. The UPN governors between 1979 and 1983, were the ones who achieved best results, followed by the NPP governors, but when Buhari came, he was just locking them up in prisons, like chicken. Twenty-one years imprisonment, 23 years, it was Onabanjo’s imprisonment, I’m sure, that must have cut short his life-span.
You were an active member of the NADECO group, why was it difficult for NADECO to transform into a polit­ical party and control things the way they feel?
The crack from within came when Bola Ige went to work with Obasanjo, that was what facilitated and widened the crack.
Is it that the Yorubas have never benefited from any leader as they have now since 1999 even with the eight years of Obasanjo?
Everybody knows how much the Yorubas benefited from Obasanjo’s regime. I remem­ber that even here in Egbaland, his home town, the road from his farm to Abeokuta was not done, the Sango-Ota bridge was not completed, and the road from Lagos to Ilorin through Ibadan was not completed.
You are an Egba, it is being said that the Egbas have given Ogun State political crisis more than every other tribe in the state?
You should give us one credit as AD, in 1999, Obasanjo lost his ward, he lost in all Yorubaland but in spite of that, in the Afenifere leadership, we decided to support him as President, we rallied round him. In the Senate, I supported him, when they were making plans to impeach him, I was the one who leaked it and I was disciplined by the Senate for doing so. Every time the Fulani people tried to remove him, we rallied round him and what did he do for us? Nothing. I’m saying this to let you know that when it comes to Yoruba interest, we are not tribal­ists, it’s our own interest that we protect. It’s in the Yoruba interest that Obasanjo must not be thrown out of office even though we did not vote for him. It would have been our shame if he was disgraced out of office.
Look at the latter-day Awoists, fake Awoists who hijacked the AD and what they now called APC or ACN, the PDP offered Yorubas speakership of the House of Reps, they sabotaged it and gave it to a Fulani and then they are complaining that Yorubas are marginalised, how will they not be margin­alised when at the centre of power, you are not there.
Is APC not doing well here in Ogun State?
I don’t want to join in the current crisis of the APC in Ogun State, I’m neutral, and not in any political party. Those who are in the position to judge them have judged them.
You reside here, a citizen and an Ogun elder, you should have a posi­tion?
The only partisan position I have is that Ogun State should support Jonathan. I don’t support PDP, I don’t support APC in Ogun State. I support Jonathan.

The Sun